Do you think the fuss over starting salaries among law students is somewhat unnecessary?

[abelard29]

This is kinda long but please read all and then answer.....thanks

I'm going to be a junior in a good university and I plan on going to law school afterward. I am an Econ and Poli Sci double major with a 3.6 GPA. (I still have to take my LSATs) I plan on doing something in corporate or financial law, particularly specializing in contracts.

And I know its true that if you go to a top law school and do relatively well your starting salary can be over $100k. But most of these huge firms tend to be located in VERY expensive areas (NY, LA, Chicago).

I was wondering---just in case I don't get into those "top schools" (I'll still try though), you can still get a great job right?

I was thinking about it and which starting salary is better

$150k in a HUGE NYC firm where it takes forever to get promoted (b/c there are so many top notch associates)

OR

maybe $80k in a MEDIUM sized law firm in Dallas where you will probably get promoted faster.......

Texas= Very low cost of living
NYC= Insanely high cost of living

You see where Im going with this? Is it sometimes better to make a little less if the cost of living is soooo much cheaper? (Dallas is something like 15 times cheaper than NYC I think)

What do you REALLY think is a better option........this is why I wonder why law school students always talk about the HIGHEST SALARY.......when that usually isnt much when adjusted for the cost of living?

Just wanted some thoughts/advice.......Im being reasonable here right? Feel free to correct me if I made some incorrect assumptions.

[dennie18]

You are making a few incorrect assumptions.

First, not all laws students obsess over getting 6 figure salaries at law firms. Only law students who want to actually be hired as associates at large prestigious law firms ("Big Law" for short on the law boards and blogs) obsess about those figures and only law students in Tier 1 law schools do so realistically. When you are talking about these kinds of law students, you are talking about demographic that is extremely competitive and ambitious, many of whom have a tremendous sense of entitlement. As such they look at starting salaries not only from an immediate compensation point of view, but also as a measure of their standing and success in the world of private practice in general and Big Law in particular.

Many Big Law salaries also take into account the difference in cost of living where the office is located. A national Big Law firm with multiple offices will often have different salaries for different offices. For example, prior to the recession, starting salaries for associates in New York offices were $160,000 while starting salaries in smaller cities like Philadelphia were $140,000 or less for many of the same law firms.

Additionally, smaller firms that can only afford to pay $80,000 are often going to have inferior employee benefits to accompany them as well. Many of my colleagues in smaller firms don't even have dental coverage and their premiums are as high as mine were when I was in a Big Law firm.

The size of the starting salary is also used to measure the success of the law firm. It is relevant to expectations regarding annual bonuses (which in the past could exceed 20% of their salary in Big Law firms) and prospective annual compensation should one be fortunate enough to make partner. If you make partner at a law firm that can only afford to pay its associates $80,000 as a starting salary, your annual take as a partner in such a firm is likely to eventually be less than as a partner in Big Law by as much as several hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Partnership promotion does not necessarily happen faster at a firm that pays less salary either. The criterion for making partner are similar to those for making partner at a Big Law firm and may actually be greater as many smaller firms also have broader criterion for client promotion. In a Big Law firm, when client promotion is discussed in contexts of evaluating associates for partner promotion, one is largely talking about the ability to deliver quality work in an efficient and prompt manner to an existing client such that the client is motivated to send additional work to the firm. It is rare for Big Law to take origination of new clients into account because, generally speaking, Big Law business models do not facilitate or encourage such behavior from associates. For smaller firms on the other hand, the business model often does facilitate and/or encourage an associate to bring new clients to the firm. While that has a plus side if the firm shares in the fees generated by such clients with the originating associate (many do), it also has a negative side in that if an associate cannot bring additional clients to the firm it will hurt his or her chances of being promoted to partner, and will also impact on what his or her annual compensation will be as a partner if promoted. It is not uncommon for such associates to actually take a substantial reduction in annual compensation for their first few years as a partner.

Finally, the cost of living differential is nowhere near what you seem to believe it is. If the overall cost of living in New York City was 15 times greater than living in Dallas then a $20,000 salary in Dallas would go as far as a $300,000 salary in New York City which I think you can see, when set forth in those terms, is ludicrous.

Depending on what you mean by a “top” law school and a “great” job you may or my not be able to get a great job. You don’t need to be in one of the top 14 law schools, but unless you are in one of the top 50 or so with a high GPA and law journal credentials it is not very realistic to expect a job as a corporate attorney that will pay even close to $100,000. It is more probable that if you graduate in the middle of your class from a lower ranked law school that you will be considered fortunate to get any corporate attorney job, and the salary will be well below $80,000 if you do manage to find employment. The job market for entry level corporate attorneys is that competitive, and it is going to get more competitive as all law firms are going to have to cut costs, including salaries to meet client expectations that have evolved from the current recession as well as from the ability to outsource certain legal tasks overseas to legal support businesses in places like India and the Philippines.

[max]

Excellent, excellent question!! Star for you!

You raised many issues. If you want to know your chances of getting into a top firm and making a six figure starting salary, read the Calico Cat Blog link below. The think to take away from that is that there is no good fallback. Many times, it's either the 100k job or unemployment. Only the top 5-10 percent get the lucrative salaries. The rest have to eek out a living.

There was a time when the best in the class got the top jobs, while the bottom half of the class got government jobs or small firm jobs. Now it's a division between employed and unemployed. Competition is stiff for even an assistant county attorney.

You ought to consider a cost benefit analysis to going to law school, as well, and that's why I'm posting the second link. You'll be taking out a loan equivalent to a small mortgage if you are not getting grants or scholarships.

If salary is what you're really after, there are cheaper ways to do it. I went to high school with a man who didn't work hard in school. I was the 4.0 and he was the jock. Years later, he's pulling in $150k a year doing real estate. He has no college debt because he never went. I don't even make half that, and I have a 30 year loan repayment plan. The only way I'll make that is if I climb the corporate ladder.

There are many ways to command a six-figure salary, but law is not a faster path unless you fall in the top 5-10 percent.

[aethelbert35]

Listen to previous-poster AJ - he knows what he is talking about.

Heads up!!!

Warning> Jobs in the field of Law are drying up fast!! This is just not a good field to invest time and/or money into. This is a SHRINKING vocational field. Many reasons. Many people today (mistakenly) think they can do their own legal work, thanks to the Internet. Also, we simply already have way too many Legal Professionals - we have an absolute glut!! ("Legal Professionals" includes, but is not limited to: Attorneys/Lawyers, Paralegals, Legal Assistants, Legal Secretaries, Bailiffs, Court Reporters, etc, etc)

Employers (usually law firms) in the field of Law today want employees with degrees from traditional colleges/universities. Those "certificates" you see advertised aren't worth the paper they are printed on - they are generally scams. (I found this out the hard way.)

PLEASE do your research about the cost and expense of law school BEFORE you enroll. Law school to be a lawyer, approx $150,000+ ; be prepared to take on a lot of debt.

You are exactly right about the cost of living. A lot depends upon what kind of a lifestyle you really want - do you want to get married? - do you want to have kids? If you want kids, where would you want to raise those kids? Consider your long-term goals also. But a lot of people, when they are bragging about their salaries, don't mention things like cost of living, debt load, and/or lifestyle. Those things are important also.

Even if you finish law school, you won't be able to find a job when you are done. Since this vocational field is shrinking, many new attorneys/lawyers are, themselves, having to work "down" as Paralegals, Legal Assistants, Legal Secretaries, Bailiffs, Court Reporters, etc, etc, to simply try to keep some of their bills paid <<this would be your competition. And the competition is fierce!!

Now... the law schools know this, but they won't tell you the truth >that the job market/economy is just saturated with way too many Legal Professionals. Instead the schools will feed you a fairytale and will lie to you. The root of the problem is we have too many law schools. We are in a recession, and the schools are fighting for their own survival - they will tell students anything to get to the students' money. (Which is why they won't tell you the truth about the job market for the field of Law.) And these schools continue to recruit and churn out even more graduates.............

If you don't believe me, then just do a search here on Yahoo Answers to see what other posters are saying about the current status of the field of Law. Call some local law firms - ask to speak to the Manager of Human Resources - ask them if they are hiring; ask them what they think about job availability in the field of Law..................

In the book "So You Want to be a Lawyer?" by Marianne Calabrese and Susanne Calabrese (ISBN 0-88391-136-1): "The United States has more lawyers than any other country in the world. About 38,000 students graduate >each year< from the 200+ law schools in the United States. The competition is very keen for jobs and clients." - Even Associate Justice Antonin Scalia (who served on the U.s. Supreme Court for more than 20 years) says there are too many lawyers. (9/14/2008)

AJ pointed a couple of good sites for you to research. Here are a couple more - check out these websites also: http://abajournal.com/news/triplt_bad_news_for_law_students_three_firms_aX_summer_associate_programs/
http://abajournal.com/news/as_rio_tinto_saves_millions_other_corps_will_outsource_too_counsel_says/

If you can, consider changing your major NOW while you still have the chance. If you want a job when you are done with your studies, consider and look into the field of >>>Healthcare! I spoke to a career counselor from Jobs and Family Services, and HE told me that this is where the jobs are, and future job availability! and scholarships!

Good luck (to us all).


(This was intended as personal opinion, and not intended to be used as legal advice.)

[mads]

well, it is a decision whether u want to be a smalll fish in a big bowl (NYC) , or a big fish in a small bowl (Dalla)?

if it is only my choice, assuming that i can get into any university i want and i am damn bright, i will pick the best law firm in usa whereever it is. Cost of living is not important in my consideration becasue the pay will cover the cost of living, the jobs are more challenging, and the opportunity for much better pay with the same firm or another firm is always there

if u cannot get to the top law school like havard, there is no point moving to nyc, a different city and environment, where people of your education and experiences are a dime a dozen. In that case, just stay in dallas, and try to get into the top law firm there.