Can an atheist believe in free will?

by **salvadore94** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:01 am

By free will I mean this: suppose I steal some chewing gum from the drug store, and I get caught by the store owner who says "You shouldn't have done that." Now, I am free with respect to my act of stealing the gum if and only if it would have been possible for me to choose not to steal it (i.e., the preceding events and physical laws do not permit just one possible outcome).

So the question is, can an atheist rationally believe that he has free will, or must he believe that there is only one possible series of choices for him to make throughout his life? And if you think free will is a genuine possibility, on what grounds?

by **bearchan** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:09 am

By free will I mean this: suppose I steal some chewing gum from the drug store, and I get caught by the store owner who says "You shouldn't have done that." Now, I am free with respect to my act of stealing the gum if and only if it would have been possible for me to choose not to steal it (i.e., the preceding events and physical laws do not permit just one possible outcome).

So the question is, can an atheist rationally believe that he has free will, or must he believe that there is only one possible series of choices for him to make throughout his life? And if you think free will is a genuine possibility, on what grounds?

Yes, it is possible, and nobody requires grounds to hold a belief.

I personally find several points that can be raised to make free will at least plausible. First is the fact that those who claim the physical system of the universe is causally closed are simply making a metaphysical claim. Even classical mechanics is described statistically, so there is room for all sorts influence from consciousness. Second, we do not understand consciousness, so those who claim it is a product of the brain are also going way too far beyond the evidence. Third, how things shift from quantum weirdness to classical level (seeming) determinacy is unknown. Again, wiggle room.

by **broehain61** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:25 am

Free Will is not.

I do NOT have the Free Will to be thirty once again or even six foot two and 180 pounds.
I do NOT have the Free Will to have been born as the Sun King in 1638 or to have invented the telephone or to have had Natalie Wood even just once.

Free Will is a furphy dreamed up by godsters who lacked the intellect to discern the fact that there are very few things in life that we can actually choose.

We can't choose our parents, intellectual quotient, status in society, our teachers.

Most of the things we 'can' choose are little more refined than Pavlov's dogs’ responses to his bells.

AND I'll bet the starving-dying little black kid in Darfur KNOWS Free Will is a crock.
~

by **chika** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:31 am

"the preceding events and physical laws do not permit just one possible outcome"

If that were true predicting the future state of systems would be trivial. However, many systems are dynamic systems, meaning it is not easy or even not possible to accurately predict future states from the current one. That doesn't mean they are not deterministic in nature. For an example, see the weather and why weather reports will always suck.

But I do not believe we have free will, just the complexity of a dynamic/deterministic system and a story we tell ourselves (I made that choice/I could have chosen differently, when in reality it was the only choice we would have made given our state)

by **eilis** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:35 am

We make choices every day in life. This "is" free will. Those choices create the who, what, and where you find your self.

Theists believe that their god has preplanned and is aware of all that you will do in your life which is predestination and the removal of free will.

You could have chosen not to take the gum but made a bad choice and stole. Your logic is backwards in that you "chose" to steal the gum.
Think about it!

by **hrafn** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:36 am

Yea, but not as you depict. Our "free will" is restricted by law. So we don't do what you think.

However, you do what we know you'd do, which is what you think we do: stealing, lying, cheating, killing. But it doesn't matter, right? God lets you do it because your fate is predetermined anyways. Right?

by **dubh35** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:42 am

Atheists can think whatever they want. They are not bound by any dogma.

Having said that. I do think free will is an illusion. You only think you are free to decide whether or not to steal gum. But your decision is dictated by the natural flow of electricity through your neuro-pathways, the chemicals in you brain, your needs, your likes, your dislikes, and past experiences leading all way back to that first experience at birth. We don't choose any of those things, they are just there and they determine what 'decisions' we make.

by **seme22** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:49 am

Those who assert that they are wise often come up with conclusions like “There is no God” or “The Bible is not to be trusted” or “These are not the ‘last days.’” Such ideas are just as foolish in God’s eyes as concluding that “2=1.” (1 Corinthians 3:19) Whatever authority people may arrogate to themselves, you do not have to accept their conclusions if they contradict God, ignore his Word, and violate common sense. In the final analysis, the wise course is always to “let God be found true, though every man be found a liar.”—Romans 3:4.

by **darik2** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:57 am

I'm not very interested in the idea of free will, to be honest, except where religious people try to make stupid and highly contradictory claims about it to support their belief system. I believe in limited free will. People have the theoretical ability to make any choice they like within their own resources and capabilities, although we limit that number due to the needs of living in a civilised society. I don't really see what more needs to be said.

by **dennie18** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:59 am

I'm not very interested in the idea of free will, to be honest, except where religious people try to make stupid and highly contradictory claims about it to support their belief system. I believe in limited free will. People have the theoretical ability to make any choice they like within their own resources and capabilities, although we limit that number due to the needs of living in a civilised society. I don't really see what more needs to be said.

No matter how you dress up your question it still makes no sense to ask a group of people who generally take resposibility for their actions, don't follow religious doctrines and are known to be free thinkers, if they believe in free will!

This question only makes sense if the subject in question is somebody who generally believes in religion and follows things on faith rather than logical thought.

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